1.1.01.01.016: The Ishihara test is final and cannot be reviewed, nor retaken

[needshumility]

If the only way you could have total freedom within a society is to be literally invisible to that society, would you consider it worth it? If it took to technically not exist to be able to live by your own rules, would you want that?

Or would it be too lonely? Is there any point in that freedom when you can't share it with anyone, and you're left as an observer to a society where nobody else had any freedom at all?

[Wardens-Eddie-likes filter (doctors, Howie and other officious types excluded. George is in, though)]

There's... some concepts I'm not entirely sure of the meaning of, and after talking to my inmate, I think it's quite important to understand them.

God, and the afterlife.

I've talked to a few people, and no offence, they seem to have done their best to explain it, but it seems a little fuzzy still.

Is god a physical person? If so, why is he a god above everyone else? If not, why do people call themselves goddesses here? What's the difference between people who say there's one god, and those who say there's lots, responsible for different things? Which one's right?

Are both right? Are none right?

Is the afterlife just... something the Previous think happens after death, or is it something specific? Why would someone say this place wasn't the afterlife... when it's clearly, um, after life? For the dead people, anyway.

[Private, seperately, to Sveta and Martha - video]

[Eddie comes on screen.] Hi. I found something and... I thought you might be able to tell me what it was about.

[He holds up a copy of a Ishihara test]

We found this in the library, and me and Jane can see different things in it. Why might that be? What's the purpose of this?

[Kitchen filter]

Could you spare me a piece of meat, by any chance? You probably won't get it back.

[Lab staff-folks]

My inmate wants to do an experiment, and if I'm supervising and he wants to come in to do something, is that alright? He's not doing anything dangerous, and I'll make sure nothing's taken.

[Private to Victor.]

I've asked for some meat, for that experiment you wanted to do. You can have the day off from work to do it, so pick whenever suits you.

Comments

[Exclusive Warden Filter] oh god excuse the tl;dr

[knowsthepeople]

I think most people've - at least, where I'm from - agreed that God's incorporeal. He's considered to be "above" everything else because, according to most religions who believe in Him, he created the universe and kinda keeps an eye on it.

The people who call themselves gods and goddesses here are from different faiths then the one that talks about there being only one God, and I guess either come from another universe where they are goddesses who exist with bodies like ours, or they've just been hidin' really well fah the last couple thousand years. Persephone's a Greek goddess, Loki's Norse and Coyo's Aztec. Most early religions, like the ones they're from, had more then one god, but by the time a lot of us ah from back home, a lot of people follow religions that only talk about one god, and since a lot of us ah from more Western cultures, the standard here seems to be a little skewed towahds monotheistic religions.

I think what you believe about whether there's one god or a thousand kinda kinda varies based on where you're from. If we got someone from Coyo's world, they'd probably think the rest of us are crazy fah not worshiping her and her family, but someone from my universe'd think it's ridiculous they even exist, since people stopped worshipin' them thousands of years ago.

The afterlife kinda varies based on what faith you practice, too. I was raised Catholic, so I was taught to believe there's a heaven and a hell, and purgatory for people who aren't ready to go to either. There's no real definition of what any of 'em are supposed to actually be like, since no one's ever come back to tell us about what it's like, but Hell's supposed to be fiery and basically a place to be tortured for the misdeeds you committed in life, and Heaven's supposed to be a reward fah being a good person while you were on Earth.

I think people think this isn't really the afterlife because it's not really either Heaven or Hell, and not all of us died to get here. I guess if I had to compare it to somethin', I'd say Purgatory, but it's not really that either. There's no second chances at life in the afterlife I was raised to believe in, but people get to leave the Barge and go back to their lives after they've graduated, and there ah definitely people who by definition, maybe shoulda ended up in Hell, if this really was the afterlife.

But that's just me. I'm pretty sure everyone could tell you somethin' different based on what they were brought up to believe in and whatever.

Re: [Exclusive Warden Filter] s'all good. meta-howie's response was twice as long in my head.

[needshumility.livejournal.com]

Right...

So if everyone might think something different, what's the right answer? Surely people can't have this much stock in something they're guessing at, can they?

[apologies for the short in response to your tl;dr]

[Exclusive Warden Filter] oh howie xD

[knowsthepeople]

Everyone, oah at least, the people who really, truly believe everything written in somethin' like the Bible oah whatever, tend to think that their version is right and everyone else's is wrong.

It's kinda gotten better over the years - it used to be most people were really violently focused on their religion and fuck everyone else, right? But now most people kinda think gettin' into heaven oah whatever depends more on bein' a good person, and not on what religion they follow.

And I think people put a lotta stock into it because they like to think everythin' we're doing on Earth means somethin', you know? And to know you've got somewhere to go when it's all over's kinda comforting, instead of just thinking everything's just... over when you die.

[Nooo problem. c:]

Re: [Exclusive Warden Filter] oh howie xD

[needshumility.livejournal.com]

But none of them are really the truth?

At home, I guess, our lives ar given meaning by our civil obligation to the Collective. But this... your lives are given meaning by what happens after you die? Is that right?

What do you make of this place, then?

[Exclusive Warden Filter]

[knowsthepeople]

I wouldn't say that. People believe what they believe is the truth, they just can't really prove it beyond a reasonable doubt or whatever, and since no one can really prove someone's wrong, any of 'em could be the truth, oah they might all be scams we've just been buyin' into for the last couple thousand years.

For some people. Not everyone. Religion's a big influence on some people's actions, but I think, at least, back where I'm from, it doesn't really totally govern everyone's lives over everything else. I mean, my religion says killing is wrong, and I believe in that, but not just because my religion says I should, you know?

Honestly, guy? I don't really know. I don't think the Admiral's god, and I don't think this place is hell, but I can't say what it is, either.

Re: [Exclusive Warden Filter]

[needshumility.livejournal.com]

Are there things your religion believes are wrong that you don't really see the problem with?

I really do appreciate your answers, by the way.

[Exclusive Warden Filter]

[knowsthepeople]

Sure. Technically, I'm not supposed to be alright with same sex relationships or marriages, but I don't really see a problem with it. The Catholic church isn't big on divorces either, but I figure it's better to leave some guy who's knocking you around then stay with him just because the church says you're supposed to, you know?

No problem, guy. Hope it's helpful.

Re: [Exclusive Warden Filter]

[needshumility.livejournal.com]

[Eddie's staring at that.] I've never heard of any of those things.

Anyway. So... it's not a problem, with the people in charge, you not agreeing with those Rules? It doesn't get you in trouble?

[Exclusive Warden Filter]

[knowsthepeople]

Not really. I mean, certain priests might get annoyed with you if you bring it up, oah if I like, went up to the Pope and gave him a lecture on somethin' like that, I think he'd be pretty pissed, but I don't think one guy really cares that some guy from Boston doesn't agree with him about divorce or whatever.

Re: [Exclusive Warden Filter]

[needshumility.livejournal.com]

Right.

So the most that'll happen is someone disagreeing?

But, and I mean no offence by this, if you believe in some of it, shouldn't you believe in all of it? Why... choose to believe that, if you're going to agree with some bits and not others?

I got the impression it was pretty free choice, so why not pick something closer to what you actually think?

[Exclusive Warden Filter]

[knowsthepeople]

Well, I think technically, you can still be excommunicated, but again, don't really think the Pope cares about what some guy from Boston has to say.

I'm still Catholic because I was raised Catholic, and I don't have big enough problems with the way my church handles thing to bother switching to something else. And I agree with most of the important pahts, just not stuff about how only Catholics can get into heaven and you can't marry certain people oah get divorced from someone you shouldn't've married oah whatever.

Re: [Exclusive Warden Filter]

[needshumility.livejournal.com]

Oh, so it's more to do with how you were raised?

[pause]

This is starting to make a lot more sense. Thank you.

[Exclusive Warden Filter]

[knowsthepeople]

I think so. I mean, it's not outta the question to change what you wanna practice, but I think most people, if they're gonna practice a faith, tend to just stick with what they did when they were kids. It's kind of like tradition, you know?

And no problem, honestly. You got any other questions about it oah whatever, I'd be happy to answer, as best I can, anyway.

Re: [Exclusive Warden Filter]

[needshumility.livejournal.com]

No, I... I really do understand that.

Thanks.

[Exclusive Warden Filter]

[knowsthepeople]

Sure, guy. So, what got you askin' about it, if you don't mind me asking?

Re: [Exclusive Warden Filter]

[needshumility.livejournal.com]

People keep mentioning the ideas of gods and the afterlife. I was trying to work it out, but then didn't follow a conversation with my inmate at all, so thought I best ask.

[Exclusive Warden Filter]

[knowsthepeople]

There's really no like, religion or idea of an afterlife oah whatever where you're from?

Re: [Exclusive Warden Filter]

[needshumility.livejournal.com]

No afterlife. There's... something I can relate religion to.

[Exclusive Warden Filter]

[knowsthepeople]

Oh yeah?

Re: [Exclusive Warden Filter]

[needshumility.livejournal.com]

We have a set of infallible Rules, written by Munsell. Who created the Collective as we know it, and that gives us purpose in existence, I suppose.

[he doesn't sound all that sold.]

[Exclusive Warden Filter]

[knowsthepeople]

Is Munsell your leader oah some guy who lived like, a hundred years ago?

Re: [Exclusive Warden Filter]

[needshumility.livejournal.com]

Over a hundred. Back at the Epiphany.