1.1.01.01.030: variant b mildew.
Aug. 26th, 2011 12:29 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
[Infirmary wardens (both doctors and not-doctors) filter. Plus Una, Jane, George and Victor]
I am... quite aware that one of your number, and a significant one, is not present for this, but I cannot simply sit on this for too long, and I believe we have some issues which need discussing. I do encourage this to be shared with her upon her return. It was no attempt to do it behind her back. I simply couldn't wait.
I have been advised to do this, and have included the person who advised me to do so, someone who has helped me previously with this, my inmate (as I wish matters to be clear to him) and Jane Brunswick, on this filter.
A while ago, when one of you was treating my inmate for injuries, I asked the doctor to show me everything they were doing, in detail. After I asked to see the drugs come out of their packets, and questioned the way I was being spoken to, said doctor then asked me why I was doing this. I then said, quite honestly, that I didn't trust them, and that it would be the same for any other doctor.
I also, admittedly, may have said that I did not believe the doctor to be incompetent. It was their intent, not their ability, that I didn't trust.
This remains the case. It has been suggested to me that I explain why, so I will give the best explanation I can.
I do not trust any Swatchman (my world's equivalent of a doctor, for reference) at home except my father. The simple reason why is that [copies words from Una] they are complicit in the state instructed murder of anyone politically inexpedient, or whose existence brings the nature of the collective into doubt. I used to trust them implicitly - much like everyone trusts you - and it was incredibly traumatic and difficult to discover otherwise. Therefore, I find it virtually impossible just to take your word for it that you do not do the same or similar. Everything that has been said to me by way of explanation has only sounded like what we're told about Swatchmen. I required proof to trust my own father, as a Swatchman. I hope you understand why, until I see some proof on your counts, I cannot trust you.
That being said; I am under the impression that I am being talked about. Why I am under that impression, I am not at liberty to share. Let me make a few things clear: I have not accused anyone of anything. I mentioned distrust, and that I wanted to make sure no harm was done. As, I believe, your 'oath' instructs you. I have never intended to stop you helping people. I am aware that you are the only people here capable of doing so.
My investigations into comas and disappearances are exactly that; investigations. I want to find the cause, whatever it might be. There is no result I am seeking specifically. It is not a vehicle to discredit anyone. Anything said to this end is, at best, a misunderstanding, and at very worst, a lie.
I hope this clarifies matters between us, and that nobody has cause to be upset or angry at me because of this.
I wish I could leave this here. I really do, but there are other things I have to say, because a lot of what has come to pass between us has upset me. I don't want that to be ignored.
I do feel, at times, that I have been patronised. Perhaps this is because I have not explained the nature of my distrust, but I have sometimes got the impression that it is assumed my distrust was because I didn't understand the medicine, and that an explanation like you would give to a child would suffice in making me feel better.
I also feel that my genuine concerns over comas and other matters have been dismissed, and incredibly rudely so. I was, and I paraphrase but do not misquote, told by a doctor that I should stop asking questions or go home. I have to point out, here and now, that this kind of response made my lack of trust worse and not better, as it appeared to me that something was being covered up.
There have been occasions when I, in my mind, have been insulted by a doctor here. Which perhaps is a matter of personal difficulty, not professional ones. But if it is standard for a doctor to tell me, in reference to the way I see colour, that it is a 'deficiency', then it hardly makes me inclined to trust you. I would not tolerate that language towards a Grey from someone Chromatic. I would not tolerate it from my inmate. So I think I have relative reason to be offended, in my view.
Finally, in regards to my offer to do the inventory, as I am worried about what assumptions you may have drawn and why; everything I offered was genuine, everything I said was the truth. I admit, I wanted to do it because I wanted to have a closer look at how you worked, but this was perhaps as much in the hope that I would see things to prove me wrong as it was that I might catch you proving me right. The fact I was not allowed, again, I will say, did not help my mistrust. It made everything seem like more of a closed world where I was not allowed to ask questions, offer assistance, and that any mistrust was down to be being an uneducated idiot. I am not saying this was the intent, but it was how it felt, and if I am explaining why I do not trust you all, I must include this matter.
I have to say: I still don't trust any of you. I might be wrong, I know that, but I can't take the risk. I hope you understand this. I will still request that unless it is the strictest of emergencies that I am present when you treat my inmate, and yes, that everything you do is demonstrated to me (nb: I know what your drugs do. I know what most of your equipment does. I just want to see that this is what's happening. And all that's happening). I would consider it irresponsible to my inmate's well being if I did not do so. I apologise if this offends you, but his well being comes before your feelings. I will not hide that this is the decision I have made.
((ooc: apologies for tl;dr, and apologies for doing it whilst some characters ain't about - I could wait, Eddie couldn't as he's a nervy little thing and doesn't want to chicken out. But backreading/tagging is not just fine, but encouraged. :D))
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Date: 2011-08-25 11:50 pm (UTC)He handled it well when it happened to him. I commend him for that.
Trust may be something that must be earned, but suspicion can be just as damning. Especially among those inmates here that genuinely want to help people. They're my primary concern, because many of them will try and become the worst of what you expect of them. Pitiful though it is, it's almost as if proving the worst suspicions correct frees them from the obligation of avoiding all those other forms of disappointment.
And they shouldn't be taught to reveal secrets about their patients just to make someone else comfortable. There was a reason doctors of the past were trusted. They were a safe place to reveal everything about yourself.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-25 11:57 pm (UTC)I would also like to say that I have gone to great efforts to make any issues of mistrust not public. I have not discussed it with any inmate but my own, and never on a public filter. Not even on a warden filter. I am aware that my issues of mistrust are not everyone's, and have not actually actively tried to spread suspicion.
If you wouldn't mind, could you please explain what you mean by "taught to reveal secrets about their patients just to make someone else comfortable" - I don't know what you think I'm asking you to do, but it never was that.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-26 12:06 am (UTC)Most of the wardens know about it, and the inmates are hardly ignorant to the goings on around them. My concern is that you continue to approach with caution, and please consider the people of this infirmary have currently just dealt with beds full of dead people.
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Date: 2011-08-25 11:55 pm (UTC)But this empathy should go both ways. No one here is obligated to lend their skills to the well being of the passengers on the Barge. They aren't ordered or paid to do so. They choose to do so of their own volition. So, to have their motives questioned can be just as insulting.
You mentioned the Hippocratic Oath in passing. Are you aware of what it states?
Re: [Private]
Date: 2011-08-26 12:04 am (UTC)I was shown the whole thing, yes. I have to point out - by someone who wasn't a doctor. I... might have thought that was a starting place. The problem with that is... it's still your word for it. And I'd love, absolutely love, to believe it was all true and what you really did - but everything in it sounds like what Swatchmen said that turned out to be a long way from the truth.
Thank you for understanding, though.
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Date: 2011-08-26 12:09 am (UTC)Re: [Private]
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From:Re: [Private] - strangely. this makes you more trustworthy to eddie. I DON'T EVEN KNOW.
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Date: 2011-08-26 12:08 am (UTC)We're...I'm...trying to do the same thing with you. But you tried to go about it by doing the inventory...when, in reality, you were trying to check in on us. Do you see the trouble there?
I know that I'm just picking on a small part of what you said, but I think it's a fair thing to address. Especially considering that you are talking about trust here. Or, at least it seems that way.
Re: Private
Date: 2011-08-26 12:23 am (UTC)I also don't think 'checking up on you' is a fair way to describe it. I wanted to see more of how you worked so I could at least... attempt to work on the trust. Nothing I said about wanting to help wasn't true. I can see, how after everything I've said about... having difficulties trusting you, it might look like I wanted to spy or something like that, instead of helping. But that wasn't my intent. There were a lot of reasons for wanting to do that, I swear.
You were welcome to address anything you wanted, Doctor. It's why I wrote this, so things were addressed, instead of ignored, or talked about where the others couldn't see them.
Re: Private
Date: 2011-08-26 12:42 am (UTC)I believe you about that, Eddie, I do. I didn't think you had intentions on spying or anything. And I'm sorry that this situation has arisen. But, at the same time, do you understand my hesitation about this? I've never hidden anything from you, and I have in fact tried to support you in this and even things with your inmate, if you recall.
So I guess the question is, Eddie, what do you want from us? From me? To prove what you're wanting?
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Date: 2011-08-26 03:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-26 10:26 am (UTC)Infirmary Filter - voice
Date: 2011-08-26 04:55 am (UTC)One: You say you don't trust us, but you wanted to do inventory in order to...what, spy on us? Make sure we're not making people sick or killing anyone? That's pretty goddamn offensive, buddy. First of all, why should we trust YOU when you've just admitted your intentions? Secondly, what you're doing is asking us to respect you even though you think we might turn around and murder someone.
Do you know what it took for me to get where I am now? I had to graduate from college, graduate from medical school, work as an intern, work as a resident physician, and only now am I an attending physician. I worked my ass off for years to get my medical degree, and the it took another year for me to get used to any measure of bedside manner. I'm not a nice person, but I'm not a fucking killer. I do everything in my power to treat medical problems and make people well. If I wanted to kill people, I wouldn't have put forth that much effort--especially in the whole "relating to patients" department. I would have picked up a gun, gone outside, and shot the first son of a bitch I saw in the head.
Two: If at some point Victor wants medical attention without your presence, guess what? He's getting it. It's called doctor-patient confidentiality, and it's something we uphold. If for some reason he doesn't want you there, you're gonna get the hell out and let us do our jobs. It's not about our "feelings," so don't accuse us of that pussy bullshit. It's a legal concept that we swear to follow when they let us practice medicine, and for good reason. It keeps people from being judged, or blackmailed, or humiliated.
That's also why you don't get to see us work with anyone else: it's none of your damn business. You don't have the right to information on what other people are being treated for, or why, unless the patient tells you themselves. Nobody died and made you king of everyone's personal information.
Three: Remember how I said I wasn't a nice person? Yeah. Let's touch on that again, right now.
Just for kicks, until you stop thinking we're here to hurt people? I think I'm gonna call your state of vision a deficiency now, too. You want us to respect the way your world works? Start showing some respect first, because everything you just said is a hell of a lot worse than what one random doctor said about your eyesight. If you can't respect that I'm a damn good doctor, I can't respect a single thing about you.
Talk about "a reason to be offended."
Re: Infirmary Filter - voice
Date: 2011-08-26 10:11 am (UTC)oh this is[A very forced diplomatic tone.]
You're being offended because I'm actually, genuinely scared of you. You're insulting me back because... what, your hard work shows to me that you're a trustworthy doctor? So what? Every Swatchman did... about what you did to qualify. Every swatchman says exactly the same thing you do about good intentions, about being good people and it's a lie. Every single word of it is a lie. I'm not asking you to trust me, clearly that's too much, but I am asking you to show a little bit of understanding as to why I simply can't trust you. If I'm wrong, I know, it's... it's probably going to hurt your feelings. I'm sorry about that, but I can't just magic trust into the air because you say it's alright. As for the inventory - it wasn't to spy on you. It was to... I wanted to get involved so I could find reasons to trust you. Not try and find them to discredit you. So I could see what went off and convince myself that you might be alright and that everyone was telling the truth.
[the tone's slipping a little.] As for Victor. He's fine with this. He's on this filter, he can object if he wants to. Do you know why? Because he's actually being understanding about this, and more understanding than you are being right now. [okay, calm tone's kinda really gone down the pan here. He hasn't raised his voice, but it's... flaky.] He understands that all I want to do is to make sure he's being treated properly. Apart from him - I have asked for nobody's personal information, except directly from themselves.
Look, it's as simple as this: I'm trying to find reasons to trust you. I am, because I want what everyone else tells me to be the truth. I do. But I can't just believe it off what's said. It's hard. It's verging on impossible for me, but I'm trying. So it'd be nice if I got a little bit of understanding, a little bit of room for manoeuvre in between. Instead of getting shouted at and treated like I'm deliberately trying to insult you.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-26 07:28 am (UTC)And you're correct, his well being comes before our feelings, but it also comes before yours, allowing him to continue to be in pain while you are elsewhere would be irresponsible and cruel. He is not a child, and consent to treatment is in his power to give.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-26 09:56 am (UTC)Last time, I arrived there before a doctor did. I intend to do the same again, no matter the cost to myself. And it's not a matter of me treating him like a child, it's a reassurance that he will not come to harm.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-27 01:31 pm (UTC)Last time, I offered to go, being next door and didn't go because you told me not to.
Perhaps that's not your intention, but it is the result. Victor works in the infirmary, his medicine, though more primitive than ours, is closer to ours than yours is. He's able to make informed consent of his own.
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Date: 2011-08-26 03:30 pm (UTC)I have to say, I'd have rather heard this from you than some second hand source. I think it was brave of you to speak up.
At home there are councils that all medical professionals answer to, and licensing boards, and heads of hospitals and teaching facilities, but obviously those things don't exist here. The Barge's system is one that's reliant on the cooperation of the doctors - working as volunteers - and the patients that choose to come to us. So yes, there is a level of trust required in order for this infirmary to work. I think some people expect that trust to be blind, but how can it be in a place like this?
I think it's perfectly fine if you don't trust us. I hope one day you do. I also hope anyone who feels like they don't understand what we're doing will raise their voices and ask us, and I hope we as doctors do our best to explain what we're doing and how we're doing it as best we can, and to not be offended when misunderstandings happen. Because we don't all come from the 21st century and with a full background in medicine, and because we shouldn't assume people will trust us implicitly.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. I hope you'll one day see eye-to-eye with at least one of us.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-26 03:36 pm (UTC)Thank you.
For the record, I really hope that you are trustworthy and I'm wrong about that. I hope you're all like my dad and not like the rest. I'm not sitting here willing myself to see bad things - I just can't help it. Especially when everyone else trusts so implicitly and... it all just sounds like what I used to think, before I found out the truth. So I hope I can trust you one day too.
I'm just not too sure how to bring that about.
But really, thank you for understanding.
[Private]
You treated Ja...
Oh, not supposed to ask. Right.
On the off chance you may have given Jane some stitches at some point for an injury she may or may not have sustained in a port, did she explain the swatches or not?
no subject
Date: 2011-08-26 05:19 pm (UTC)[Private]
No one has mentioned what swatches are or what they're used for.
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Date: 2011-08-27 12:03 pm (UTC)Re: [Private]
Date: 2011-08-27 12:05 pm (UTC)You know that I can only see one colour, right?
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Date: 2011-08-28 04:49 pm (UTC)I will say that it was never, ever my intention to insult you. I'm not that sort of person, and I don't believe that insulting people solves things. Nor was it my intention to patronize you. I was trying to explain things from the idea that you didn't understand rather than that you understood but didn't trust us, because I didn't know that. I will only add that that I felt very attacked when I was speaking to you, and became defensive, especially on the subject of comas.
My feeling of being attacked was only increased when I discovered that you had been going behind my back with things like the questionnaires, and then when you tried to gain access to the infirmary to watch what we were doing. I honestly had no intention to block you out of the infirmary inventory because of who you were, and I stand by my assertion that I didn't want people without medical training to have access to every drug we offer. It wasn't a matter of trust, it was a matter of training. There are loads of people whom I would trust with my life, but that I wouldn't let handle the medication, even if their position at home is similar but not the same, including my husband.
I would like to add, here, in writing, that comas do worry me, they frighten me, and back when they first started occurring, we exhausted every medical reason we could think of in order to understand what was happening. I believe that they need to be Admiral-related in nature, simply because of the fact that the body doesn't work in that way. No matter what drugs we have with us, when the human body goes into a coma, certain things happen. Muscles atrophy, among other things. Comatose people require medically supplied nourishment, in the form of IVs and PIClines. None of these things happen with the Barge comas.
Additionally, I understand that you don't trust us, and now I understand why, so I'm sorry that I made things worse. I think that this is more a personality clash between than anything else. I think that we've both not made any real effort to get to know one another beyond this issue, and I expect that's a part of it. So ask me what you like, either professionally or personally and I'll try and explain.
Re: Filtered.
Date: 2011-08-28 05:12 pm (UTC)Firstly, I only did it when you weren't here because I really couldn't wait on it. If I waited, I might never have done it. You also had left out of your own choice, but that is negligible, I suppose.
Secondly, it might not have been your intention to insult me, but the language you used clearly implied inferiority. If it was unintentional, your apology is accepted, but please take care in the language you use, especially in reference to how I am different to you. As for feeling patronised - I had already told you I'd gone to great lengths, come into the infirmary and tried to understand Previous medication. I told you this as well as the fact it should have been obvious that ignorance was not the problem.
I'd like to point out that there was no intention to make you feel 'attacked' as such. You asked me a question. I told you the truth. I didn't trust you. I never... insulted you personally. I never tried to be rude.
Going behind your back? As far as I remember, you asked me about the questionnaires and I told you everything. I gave you all the information, and for all you say you were concerned - to me, the fact you genuinely did tell me 'it was the Admiral, leave it alone' looked incredibly suspicious. From the context of where I'm from and everything like that, it looked horrific. I felt also, in that particular conversation, you were exceptionally rude to me. You were, essentially, telling me to leave the subject alone or go home. It looked like you were trying to discourage my curiosity about it, and no matter what conclusions you've medically drawn, I don't think that's the sort of thing which encourages me to trust you. Because in my view, if you can't find an answer, you keep looking.
As for the inventory. As I have said to other doctors - I was not doing it to spy on you. I genuinely wanted to help. I also thought that if I got involved, it would help me see what was going off and help me trust you more. I wasn't looking to catch you out. The way I was told no... did make it seem more like a closed little group than ever, and one which was being secretive. I accept that perhaps this wasn't true, but it certainly was how it seemed.
They're past issues, I admit. I made this post in order to resolve some of them, to clear the air. I think we've done that. It doesn't mean I like you or trust you. But I didn't want to sit here and stew about it any more, nor did I want to go and talk behind anyone's back. I decided it was best to be upfront.
In the end, doctor, I don't expect you to like me or trust me. I think we've gone past that. I don't think I will like, or trust you. But I am looking for a little understanding as to why I don't trust you, which is why I explained all of this. Equally, I am trying to find ways to look at trusting the doctors here. I'm not trying to be a nasty person, or a bad man. I'm not trying to attack you. From where I'm sat, I'm trying to defend myself, and trying to protect myself, my compatriot and my inmate.
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Date: 2011-08-28 08:51 pm (UTC)Why am I still on this bloody filtI will refrain from comment on your quarrel with Martha at the risk of accusations of bias, as I have attempted to do since it began. She is capable of defending herself when given the opportunity.
I will repeat what has been said previously, however: you ought to have waited until she returned to say any of this. I have seen your explanations. You say this was an act motivated by fear of losing your nerve. I think that is only true in part, considering you had no way of knowing for sure whether she would return to defend herself.
Writing a long diatribe of such a volatile nature against a woman who is not present to offer a rebuttal smacks of cowardice. Whatever your petty squabble is with her, whatever your fears, go about them like a man. This was a coward's tactic, and you do owe her an apology.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-28 08:56 pm (UTC)I also hasten to add that I did not mention anyone's name. I did not filter this away from her. It is unfortunate she wasn't present, but it was not hidden from her. There was no malicious intent. If I wanted to discredit her behind her back, I could have. Easily. I'd have filtered things away from her, I'd have tried to convince the other doctors she was bad at her job, and the other wardens that she was an awful person. I could have done all sorts of things. But I didn't.
But you are blaming me for being a coward. When I am genuinely afraid of doctors.
I will not apologise. I will not be made to feel guilty for my fear.
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